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05 January 2007 @ 09:18 pm
Regarding the discussion on the BJfic yahoo site  
Okay, it's been a loooong fucking week (which capped off a loooong fucking holiday and oh yes, the 10 days without power did NOT help, thank you very much!!!) and my first born is going to turn 18 tomorrow (AHHH - when did that happen?), so...

I decided to drink a lovely glass of white Zinfandel (okay, maybe two - in fact, I'm pouring myself another as I write because there's another lovely storm raging outside and the power's already flickering so this might be a moot point because it'll never really get anywhere after the power goes out...again).

I probably shouldn't speak my mind out about what is being debated over on the BJfic yahoo group because I'll probably'll say something really nasty (like I'm sure I'm about to do now) so I'll just say it here.

(Ah, the zinfandel goes down rather nicely - not quite as harsh as a burgandy nor fruity as a chardonnay). So here it goes.

I stopped reading after that one chick (her name escapes me) said we should put up fics for adoption (our writing is not some goddamm homeless cat or dog looking for a home goddammit!!!) and then that other chick, Shelley I think it was, basically said how inconsiderate it was of us writers to not post a completed fic.

Oh I'm sorry - EXCUSE THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!

Sorry, I didn't mean to yell. I was always under the impression that readers would appreciate a story as it is written out. I always looked forward to something to read chapter by chapter. I know some readers have gotten into a habit of reading only finished fics, and I'm okay with that. At least they're not going around saying that that's what we're supposed to be doing.

That sentence made more sense in my head.

Anywho, another chick came around by the name of Tanya (juneprota or some such) and said that a seperate archive could be created for 'orphaned' fics with their own pretty little pat endings written by someone else! (dons Justin patronizing voice).

She then went on to say that ideas and such didn't belong to the writers of fan fic or some such nonsense and this concept really scares me.

Can our ideas and stories, even while we're still writing them I have to ask be taken and used somewhere else? I mean, by the very words she's sprouting, couldn't she also go as far to say that you could do that to someone who is currently writing something or in turn, not even get their permission?

I mean, it sounds like it's only one step away.

Or I could just be paranoid...

I just remember the fact that JRR Tolkien had written chapter after chapter in lhis etters to his son while he was ensconced in a foxhole during WW2 (which was eventually published as the Lord of the Rings trilogy). His son looked forward to those letters. No one knew if Tolkien would have been able to finish the story or if his son would have gotten to the ending. They both understood the whole point.

That sometimes, the journey itself, reading chapter by chapter, was sometimes more fun than in the ending itself.

Shit, I need more wine.

If you don't agree, or if I sound like I'm babbling, let me know..
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
Maria: B/J cha cha chaslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 06:27 am (UTC)
Okay - so it's not just me - and the power's still on so I'm still here.

Thanks for reassuring me!
Still want him in your pack?_alicesprings on January 6th, 2007 06:32 am (UTC)
Umm, well I don't usually like reading wip's for 2 reasons, I hate the suspense, I hate cliffhangers, I'm impatient! And 2, just in case it never gets finished and is abandoned and then I cry and cry.

Having said that, I don't think anyone EVER has the write to finish someone else's fic without permission, or tell someone they shouldn't post a wip.

So I totally understand why you're annoyed.
Maria: Brian scaredslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 06:46 am (UTC)
Ya see, I'm fine with people who won't read a WIP in case it doesn't get finished. If that's your policy - it's one you should stick with and it will probably serve you best.

My anger came when I read the underlying tone of the woman's words - the fact that writers should only post completed fics - like it would be the only considerate thing to do.

That's where I'm annoyed. It just sounded very ungrateful coming from her, that's all. The truth is, (not that I get a chance to read anything anymore really) is that I don't really want to start anything new unless the author is someone who will finish the story and when I was reading stories on all the different sites out there when I first entered this fandom, I only read the finished ones.

But that whole, 'hey-let's-start-an-archive-where-we'll-take-someone's-story' sort of threw me for a major loop. And then Tanya's words made me squirm when she said the ideas and such didn't really belong to a writer.

It just sets the stage for some major plagarizing atrocities.

Thanks for your input as always babe (and btw, if you're not in dial-up hell anymore and you're not still reading all the challenge fics, my 4 parter is done).

*smooches*
(no subject) - _alicesprings on January 6th, 2007 07:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
A fanjustinlovesart on January 6th, 2007 06:34 am (UTC)
I agree with a lot of what you are saying...yet not with everything.

Yes, the suggestions made by those writers/readers/fans that you mentioned are ludicrous, in my opinion, because they are based on the flawed assumption that stories and writing are two separate things and therefore any writer can take possession of any story that happens to be floating in the air and develope/complete it. As I see it, the writing is the story, it is the idea, which cannot really be ever independent of the writer(s) who conceived it in the first place.

The very unsuccessful attempt made someone to continue Myrna's Domesticity (which, by the way, was already completed)should warn anyone against ambitions of picking up others' fictions. I prefer by far fictions to be incomplete than for them to be brought to conclusion by writers who don't have anything to do with their original conception and writing, unless the original author(s)expresses the desire that it should be so, and maybe even appoints the writer who will complete their story.

I also agree with you that the journey is as - if not more - important than its destination, and seeing a fiction in progress is as enjoyable as reading a finished one. However, as a reader, I must also admit of being very wary of writers who have a knack for leaving a long string of unfinished works behind them. As a reader I invest emotionally a lot in every story I read. Wen I read a WIP part of my emotional investment rests on the trust that the writer will bring the story to completion. And of course writers cannot always complete their stories for a variety of very valid reasons, the most valid of which is that they lose interest and inspiration. But the reality is that it fucking hurts not to see a story completed, whether it's through a neatly tied up or an open ending.

All ths to say that I am all in favour of WIPs and reading a story as it unfolds. In fact, I am very grateful to those writers who let us witness their creative process. I am also of the opinion that writers should take their own time to finish their stories, even if this means months and years and huge gaps between chapters. But I would appreciate a degree of honesty on the part of those writers who know they will never complete their fictions and still declare them as WIPs. They should have the balls to simply admit they will never complete them and give the readers who were caught in their stories the benefit of letting go of them. Maybe even warn potential new readers that they will embark upon a journey that will never reach a destination.
Still want him in your pack?_alicesprings on January 6th, 2007 06:40 am (UTC)
I also agree with you that the journey is as - if not more - important than its destination, and seeing a fiction in progress is as enjoyable as reading a finished one. However, as a reader, I must also admit of being very wary of writers who have a knack for leaving a long string of unfinished works behind them. As a reader I invest emotionally a lot in every story I read. Wen I read a WIP part of my emotional investment rests on the trust that the writer will bring the story to completion. And of course writers cannot always complete their stories for a variety of very valid reasons, the most valid of which is that they lose interest and inspiration. But the reality is that it fucking hurts not to see a story completed, whether it's through a neatly tied up or an open ending.

All ths to say that I am all in favour of WIPs and reading a story as it unfolds. In fact, I am very grateful to those writers who let us witness their creative process. I am also of the opinion that writers should take their own time to finish their stories, even if this means months and years and huge gaps between chapters. But I would appreciate a degree of honesty on the part of those writers who know they will never complete their fictions and still declare them as WIPs. They should have the balls to simply admit they will never complete them and give the readers who were caught in their stories the benefit of letting go of them. Maybe even warn potential new readers that they will embark upon a journey that will never reach a destination.


You = my hero. ITTTA.
(no subject) - spangel_kat on January 6th, 2007 06:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 07:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _alicesprings on January 6th, 2007 06:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 07:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _alicesprings on January 6th, 2007 07:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 07:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eawen_penallion on January 6th, 2007 05:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eawen_penallion on January 7th, 2007 12:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
daphne121daphne121 on January 6th, 2007 08:17 am (UTC)
Personally, I try not to read too many WIPs because I'm impatient. I need to know what happens to next. I end up refreshing the page over and over again, waiting for an update.

However, that does not mean that authors shouldn't post their stories as WIP. Readers have a choice whether to read the story as it's being written or to wait to read it as a whole.

Also, I don't think people should finish off an unfinished fic without the writer's permission. I can see how some writer's may give a friend or a writer they trust permission to finish a fic. However, I don't think people should be finishing other writer's fics without permission. It's just disrespectful.
Maria: B/J cha cha chaslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 04:47 pm (UTC)
Like I said before, when I first started to read in this fandom, I only picked the completed stories as I had been burned before in the Spangel fandom.

But see, I had so much fun while I was reading the WIPs on lj in that fandom - at that point it didn't matter if there ever was an ending because we all had fun while doing it.

Believe me though when I say I see your point re cliffhangers and the such, as others have stated above.

And yes, it is just downright desrespectful to take one's writing and put your own ending on it (without the writer's permission) but the argument still goes on about what is really ethical in this fandom and fandoms in general.

Thanks for the input!
cael: Brian butt scratchirishcaelan on January 6th, 2007 11:14 am (UTC)
Sigh. Just. Sigh.
Maria: aliens harsh languageslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 04:49 pm (UTC)
Well, we all know where they can get a mod for that particular site (if one opens) - is that girl with the zodiaz moniker still around?

*scratches head*
Nightsister: Quality (here's_luck)nightsister on January 6th, 2007 02:15 pm (UTC)
What is it about this particular fandom that spawns such retarded thinking? I've NEVER seen more people write in with the "It's okay to take someone else's work, and everything I say is how it should be!" kind of attitude before.

WHO are these people? Where do they come from? And how can I get rid of them? It's behavior like this that gives the QAF fandom such a bad rep. :(
Maria: Hudson Game Over Manslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 04:54 pm (UTC)
Yeah, but ya see, these are the same people that think men can spawn children with each other. They're the same ones that stuck by what that chick with the zodiac name did and said what she did wasn't so bad.

And yes, they have done quite a bit to the BJ fandom (made me almost want to leave when all that shit went down).

I know people go fandom hopping more and more because of the people that eventually make it over to their fandom and ruin it, but it's everywhere unfortuneately.

(no subject) - sonofabiscuit77 on January 6th, 2007 05:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
My Flame Burns Bright: Brian - Dimplessuch_a_steph on January 6th, 2007 04:15 pm (UTC)
I rather think of reading WIP's as being involved with the creative process; watching it grow, giving your opinions, and sometimes even helping to shape it. I think the feedback and comments can motivate an author, and give the fic momentum. If only completed fics were "published", I think there would be far less to read, because many fics would never have been completed without the fandom participation in the creative process.
Maria: B/J ILUslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 04:59 pm (UTC)
*kisses you madly*

YES! YES!!!!

As I was saying above, when I got involved with the Spangel fandom, I would read WIPs as they were posted on lj and I had a fucking blast! I loved interacting with the writers and everyone reading the story.

I also leraned what WIPs to stay away from. When a writer writes on lj, I think the reader has more control of the story unless the writer disappears or makes a post as to why they've stopped writing.

It's sometimes hard to be part of the writing process on the sites as it's harder to see the writers' daily thoughts as they are displayed in lj. I don't know if that made sense.

Anywho, this is one of the reasons that writers crave fb - we want to know if we should go on with the story or not. I guess I could write out complete stories and then post them fully completed, but where's the fun in that?!

Thank you for bringing up that valid point!
(no subject) - such_a_steph on January 6th, 2007 05:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
firehead30: 4 inch heelsfirehead30 on January 6th, 2007 06:58 pm (UTC)
wine and lashings
*shipping you a case of Oregon Blossom wine* Darling, everything makes more sense after a lovely glass or three of white Zin *ahem*

You are going to think I am an elitest snob *shakes head in denial* but many of those induviduals over at bjfic are so clueless and idiotic that I refuse to consider what they say as anything more than a bobblhead doll trying to articulate while ordering at Mc Donalds.

There are some WIP I can read as they go along, others I cannot, but that is my choice and it is up to me as to how I read. I assure you I don't need a writer to hold my hand and pat me on the head making sure my poor Wal-mart purchased brain is not over taxed with a WIP. If a reader needs resolution right away I might suggest their reading take on a formulaic approach such as works no more than 2 pages long where everything is resolved in a roller coaster fasion and their higher brain functions are never engaged.

There mere thought of any other writer finishing someone else's work in the fashion suggested is not only repugnant and stupid, but silly as well.

Yes, ther are some unfinished works that bug the heck out of me, but so be it.

And yes, more often than not the journey is what makes everything worthwhile and interesting. Holy crap we waited for five fucking years for ILY.....perhaps those that need instant gratification should go back to McDonalds where they belong.





Maria: aliens harsh languageslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:30 pm (UTC)
Re: wine and lashings
You are going to think I am an elitest snob *shakes head in denial*

*shakes head with you* If you're an elitist snob than so am I and we can share that case of wine while lamenting on where the fandom has gone.

but many of those induviduals over at bjfic are so clueless and idiotic that I refuse to consider what they say as anything more than a bobblhead doll trying to articulate while ordering at Mc Donalds.

I agree with you on that however, it's when these people start voicing this out loud that other writers of the not so ethical variety and oh, let's face it, writers without a talented bone in their body, take it into their head that 'hey, I guess it would be okay to finish that series that I started reading a year ago.'

I started to read Dleigh's works in the beginning of my BJ conversion and yes, some of them were unfinished, by I really enjoyed what I read. I would kick myself if I had decided not to read it because it was a WIP and I would kick whatever writer was out there that decided to finish it for her. The tone would be different and it would just fall flat.

When I saw that that particular writer had not written anymore in the fandom, I went to her lj and discovered why - some weird obssessed fan got a hold of her persoonal phone # and harrassed her.

No wonder she left.

And yes, I can see why quite a few readers will wait for a story's completion unless they know the writer really well - it just makes sense.

But to the bobbleheaded-McDonald-brained idiots who seem to think we writers owe them an ending or we shouldn't post until we have a completed fic - I don't think so...

So, where's the wine?
firehead30firehead30 on January 6th, 2007 07:03 pm (UTC)
PS to my elitest ramblings
I love WIPs for one thing there are author's which thrive on feedback. Giving feedback makes me feel like I am part of the creative process. I myself cannot write for shit. But when those that write are brave enough to put up an unfished work chapter by chapter and allow us to comment and be a part of their muse...makes me happy.
Maria: BJ cuddleslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:33 pm (UTC)
Re: PS to my elitest ramblings
I didn't get the idea for the teeth necklace for Justin in my cannibal fic until I was talking with bunny and I suggested it but I was only joking because I thought I was going too far and she to go for it.

Of course, the idea to use Shawn Postoff's teeth was not discussed and maybe that went a little too far...:P

But when I was reading in the Spangel fandom, I did feel like part of the process when I gave fb.

So yeah.
Chaos..panic..disorder...my work here is done.: WTFjillapet on January 6th, 2007 09:08 pm (UTC)
See Old Granny Jillapet's response.

Stupid asshats.

*hugs you tight* I know how you feel-Chance turned 16 on Thursday. When the hell did that happen?
Maria: BJ cuddleslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:36 pm (UTC)
I saw it and LOL!

I SO LOVE YOU!!!

That's exactly how I feel.

Megan turns 16 in the summer but before that she'll be going to Italy. When did she get old enough to do that!?!

And Alex is 18 today. 18!!!!

I feel so old...

*hugs you back and holds on tight - helps you put your teeth back in while you get my pacemaker started again after I stood in front of the microwave popping popcorn that got stuck in your denture glue...*
(no subject) - jillapet on January 6th, 2007 11:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 7th, 2007 12:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
midnightinkingwords on January 6th, 2007 09:52 pm (UTC)
That makes me to never want to post my stuff there...ever!

They have communities out there for this sort of thing, but you volunteer your fics, not have them taken from you. And I don't know if these girls saying all these comments were fanfic writers, but usually in other cases they weren't. It takes alot to pour out your words, actually write it and the post it for the world to see.
Maria: BJ cuddleslave_o_spike on January 6th, 2007 11:39 pm (UTC)
See - I don't think these people are writers because if they were, they wouldn't say this. It's just hard for us as writers to do that.

But then again, these people wanted someone to take these stories - could it be these were readers who want to show everyone that they can write and would just take something that's already been started?

Well, I'm not going to let anyone scare me away from posting so I'll post but it causes food for thought!

*pats head of fellow writer and incants 'it'll be alright' over and over again*
(no subject) - irishcaelan on January 7th, 2007 01:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - slave_o_spike on January 7th, 2007 01:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - irishcaelan on January 7th, 2007 12:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)